1 00:00:06,122 --> 00:00:07,207 This event, the life 2 00:00:07,207 --> 00:00:08,708 and legacy of John Glenn. 3 00:00:09,159 --> 00:00:10,443 I'm Brian Odom, the acting 4 00:00:10,443 --> 00:00:13,179 NASA's chief historian from his birth 5 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,816 on July 18th, 1921, in Cambridge, Ohio. 6 00:00:16,833 --> 00:00:18,902 John Glenn certainly lived a life 7 00:00:18,902 --> 00:00:20,170 filled with excitement 8 00:00:20,286 --> 00:00:22,022 and incredible accomplishments. 9 00:00:22,389 --> 00:00:23,506 One of the original Mercury 10 00:00:23,506 --> 00:00:24,557 seven astronauts, 11 00:00:24,557 --> 00:00:26,626 Glenn's orbital flight aboard Friendship 12 00:00:26,626 --> 00:00:29,529 seven on February 20th, 1962, 13 00:00:29,946 --> 00:00:31,247 came at an incredibly 14 00:00:31,247 --> 00:00:32,115 important inflection 15 00:00:32,115 --> 00:00:33,366 point in the early years 16 00:00:33,366 --> 00:00:35,251 of the space race with the Soviet Union. 17 00:00:35,802 --> 00:00:38,171 His return to space on October 29, 18 00:00:38,588 --> 00:00:40,607 1998, aboard the space 19 00:00:40,607 --> 00:00:43,143 shuttle Discovery's Stass 95 mission 20 00:00:43,276 --> 00:00:44,444 captain, incredible 21 00:00:44,444 --> 00:00:46,112 career in space and cemented 22 00:00:46,112 --> 00:00:47,614 finally his legacy 23 00:00:47,797 --> 00:00:48,915 as part of that program. 24 00:00:49,215 --> 00:00:51,167 Today, I'm pleased to be joined 25 00:00:51,167 --> 00:00:53,103 by an incredible group of folks here, 26 00:00:53,286 --> 00:00:55,155 as we'll all find out in a bit here 27 00:00:55,872 --> 00:00:58,508 as we discuss Glenn's life and legacy. 28 00:00:59,225 --> 00:01:00,276 First, we have the NASA's 29 00:01:00,276 --> 00:01:02,112 administrator, Bill Nelson, here. 30 00:01:02,712 --> 00:01:04,597 Bill, then we have NASA 31 00:01:04,597 --> 00:01:05,982 Glenn Center director Dr. 32 00:01:05,982 --> 00:01:07,183 Marla Pérez-Davis. 33 00:01:07,450 --> 00:01:08,701 And our invited guest 34 00:01:08,701 --> 00:01:10,386 is historian Jeff Shesol. 35 00:01:11,287 --> 00:01:13,473 First, I'd like to welcome Dr. 36 00:01:13,473 --> 00:01:15,125 Pérez-Davis to start us off 37 00:01:15,125 --> 00:01:15,975 before turning out 38 00:01:15,975 --> 00:01:17,143 to our discussion with Jeff, 39 00:01:17,444 --> 00:01:18,578 the author of the new book 40 00:01:18,578 --> 00:01:21,464 Mercury Rising, John Glenn, John Kennedy 41 00:01:21,798 --> 00:01:23,950 and the new battleground of the Cold War. 42 00:01:24,968 --> 00:01:26,469 But first, let me introduce Dr. 43 00:01:26,619 --> 00:01:27,370 Pérez-Davis 44 00:01:28,605 --> 00:01:29,405 Doctor Margaret 45 00:01:29,622 --> 00:01:30,673 Davis is director 46 00:01:30,673 --> 00:01:32,192 currently to the director of NASA's 47 00:01:32,192 --> 00:01:34,327 Glenn Research Center in Cleveland, Ohio. 48 00:01:34,744 --> 00:01:35,562 Prior to becoming 49 00:01:35,562 --> 00:01:36,880 center director there, Dr. 50 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:38,381 Pérez-Davis held several 51 00:01:38,381 --> 00:01:39,766 leadership positions at Glenn, 52 00:01:39,999 --> 00:01:41,684 including deputy center director, 53 00:01:41,985 --> 00:01:44,170 aeronautics research office director, 54 00:01:44,354 --> 00:01:46,689 project liaison and integration office, 55 00:01:47,223 --> 00:01:49,292 and the electrochemistry branch chief. 56 00:01:49,659 --> 00:01:51,227 And now to turn it over to Dr. 57 00:01:51,227 --> 00:01:53,196 Chris Davis for some opening remarks. 58 00:01:54,364 --> 00:01:55,515 Good afternoon, and thank you 59 00:01:55,515 --> 00:01:57,634 for joining us for today's program. 60 00:01:58,067 --> 00:01:59,169 I'd like to thank Dr. 61 00:01:59,169 --> 00:02:01,204 Odom for organizing this event, 62 00:02:01,237 --> 00:02:03,289 which is part of a weeklong celebration 63 00:02:03,306 --> 00:02:04,624 that culminate this Sunday. 64 00:02:05,141 --> 00:02:07,360 Hundred years from the birth of a true 65 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:09,395 aviator space pioneer 66 00:02:09,546 --> 00:02:11,114 and a devoted public servant, 67 00:02:11,414 --> 00:02:13,416 senator and astronaut John Glenn, 68 00:02:14,050 --> 00:02:16,085 as the first American to orbit the Earth, 69 00:02:16,085 --> 00:02:18,521 Glenn became and is the national hero 70 00:02:18,972 --> 00:02:20,673 as his flight helped NASA 71 00:02:20,707 --> 00:02:22,775 learn more about human spaceflight 72 00:02:23,176 --> 00:02:24,427 and set us on a course 73 00:02:24,427 --> 00:02:25,512 to win the space race. 74 00:02:26,112 --> 00:02:27,730 I'm looking forward to hearing today 75 00:02:27,730 --> 00:02:29,649 speaker share his insight 76 00:02:29,949 --> 00:02:31,151 on the historic Mercury 77 00:02:31,151 --> 00:02:33,436 Friendship seven mission in 1962. 78 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,005 Thirty years later, Senator Glenn 79 00:02:36,039 --> 00:02:37,574 flew on again on space 80 00:02:37,574 --> 00:02:41,594 shuttle mission STS-95 participating investigations 81 00:02:41,594 --> 00:02:42,795 about the aging process. 82 00:02:43,847 --> 00:02:46,366 On March 1st, 1999, the name 83 00:02:46,983 --> 00:02:49,202 the NASA Lewis Research Center 84 00:02:49,736 --> 00:02:51,938 Grant Highway was officially rename 85 00:02:52,305 --> 00:02:53,590 the NASA John H. 86 00:02:53,957 --> 00:02:56,226 Glenn Research Center at Lewisville 87 00:02:56,626 --> 00:02:58,561 to honor these remarkable men. 88 00:02:59,395 --> 00:03:01,414 Later that Spring, that's being our Senate, hosted 89 00:03:01,781 --> 00:03:03,216 a full day of festivities, 90 00:03:03,216 --> 00:03:05,385 including a parade and ceremony. 91 00:03:06,035 --> 00:03:07,837 Senator Glenn spoke to the gathering. 92 00:03:07,987 --> 00:03:09,255 He expressed his honor 93 00:03:09,489 --> 00:03:10,840 being associated with the center, 94 00:03:11,291 --> 00:03:12,692 his historical contribution 95 00:03:12,692 --> 00:03:14,911 and bright future, not in the slogan 96 00:03:14,911 --> 00:03:16,846 he saw in one of the parade float, 97 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,083 expanding horizons, opening frontiers. 98 00:03:20,583 --> 00:03:21,634 He challenged the men 99 00:03:21,634 --> 00:03:23,770 and women of NASA again to continue 100 00:03:23,770 --> 00:03:25,989 working to make that mission a reality 101 00:03:26,506 --> 00:03:28,091 for our future explorers 102 00:03:28,091 --> 00:03:29,475 in air and space. 103 00:03:30,226 --> 00:03:31,578 I am going to read to you 104 00:03:31,594 --> 00:03:32,946 what Senator Glenn said 105 00:03:32,946 --> 00:03:34,247 to our staff that day, 106 00:03:34,831 --> 00:03:36,849 because I couldn't possibly sleep better. 107 00:03:37,483 --> 00:03:39,285 Here's a passage from his speech 108 00:03:40,186 --> 00:03:43,273 expanding horizon, opening frontiers, 109 00:03:43,957 --> 00:03:45,491 and that just about saying it, 110 00:03:46,175 --> 00:03:47,493 he'd say it for the lab. 111 00:03:47,493 --> 00:03:50,146 Here, he say, is for NASA's activities, 112 00:03:50,713 --> 00:03:52,065 expanding horizons 113 00:03:52,298 --> 00:03:53,716 and opening frontiers. 114 00:03:54,133 --> 00:03:55,802 Every single bit or advance 115 00:03:56,085 --> 00:03:58,988 that ever been made by humankind 116 00:03:59,022 --> 00:04:01,591 in all of the history has been made 117 00:04:01,591 --> 00:04:03,693 because somebody was curious, 118 00:04:04,143 --> 00:04:06,129 curious about how we do things better, 119 00:04:06,913 --> 00:04:08,598 how to do things differently. 120 00:04:09,699 --> 00:04:11,200 How if we just knew 121 00:04:11,834 --> 00:04:13,686 this little bit of information 122 00:04:14,470 --> 00:04:16,839 we got in not a secret to something else 123 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,793 in medicine, engineering, transportation 124 00:04:20,977 --> 00:04:22,595 in science across the board 125 00:04:23,079 --> 00:04:25,031 is taking that bit of curiosity 126 00:04:25,214 --> 00:04:27,667 to move us forward as humankind. 127 00:04:28,418 --> 00:04:30,336 And that's what you are all about 128 00:04:30,887 --> 00:04:31,721 right here. 129 00:04:32,021 --> 00:04:33,640 You just expand your horizon 130 00:04:34,057 --> 00:04:35,725 and opening frontiers. 131 00:04:36,342 --> 00:04:37,777 That's what he said that day. 132 00:04:38,494 --> 00:04:40,096 And we are the center 133 00:04:40,113 --> 00:04:41,464 bearing his name, continue 134 00:04:41,464 --> 00:04:43,216 his legacy of exploration, 135 00:04:43,516 --> 00:04:45,335 inspiration and discovery, 136 00:04:45,785 --> 00:04:47,537 as we may, in fact, will lasting 137 00:04:47,537 --> 00:04:49,122 contribution to our nation. 138 00:04:49,539 --> 00:04:51,307 I'm prepared to send the first woman 139 00:04:51,524 --> 00:04:53,076 and the first person of color 140 00:04:53,259 --> 00:04:54,877 to the moon on Artemis. 141 00:04:55,395 --> 00:04:56,529 Godspeed, John Glenn. 142 00:04:56,763 --> 00:04:58,364 And thank you for the example 143 00:04:58,364 --> 00:04:59,949 you set for all of us. 144 00:05:00,583 --> 00:05:01,000 Thanks. 145 00:05:02,201 --> 00:05:02,952 Back to you. 146 00:05:03,636 --> 00:05:03,653 no, no, no. 147 00:05:03,653 --> 00:05:05,388 Thank you so much to Dr. Pérez-Davis 148 00:05:05,388 --> 00:05:06,506 Really appreciate that. 149 00:05:06,506 --> 00:05:08,574 And the inspiration certainly 150 00:05:08,574 --> 00:05:10,076 that we draw from Glenn's life 151 00:05:10,610 --> 00:05:11,661 capsulated that. 152 00:05:12,512 --> 00:05:14,514 Now, I'd like to welcome our 153 00:05:14,630 --> 00:05:15,298 someone who needs 154 00:05:15,298 --> 00:05:16,683 no introduction, obviously, 155 00:05:16,683 --> 00:05:19,402 our nest administrator, Bill Nelson, 156 00:05:20,036 --> 00:05:21,471 to the stage and introduce 157 00:05:21,471 --> 00:05:23,756 our our guest, Jeff Shesol. 158 00:05:24,524 --> 00:05:26,359 First, Jeff Jeff 159 00:05:26,359 --> 00:05:28,244 is the author of several awards here, 160 00:05:28,277 --> 00:05:29,429 notably the one we'll talk 161 00:05:29,429 --> 00:05:31,497 about today, Mercury Rising, but also 162 00:05:32,098 --> 00:05:34,317 Supreme Power, Franklin Roosevelt vs. 163 00:05:34,317 --> 00:05:36,536 the Supreme Court and mutual cantante. 164 00:05:36,569 --> 00:05:37,437 Lyndon Johnson, 165 00:05:37,470 --> 00:05:38,871 Robert Kennedy in the view, 166 00:05:38,871 --> 00:05:40,907 the defining decade both selected 167 00:05:40,907 --> 00:05:41,691 as New York Times 168 00:05:41,691 --> 00:05:42,809 notable books of the year. 169 00:05:43,559 --> 00:05:44,994 He is a former speechwriter 170 00:05:44,994 --> 00:05:47,063 for President Bill Clinton, is a founding 171 00:05:47,063 --> 00:05:48,715 partner of West Wing writers, 172 00:05:49,015 --> 00:05:50,116 a Rhodes Scholar. 173 00:05:50,817 --> 00:05:52,668 He holds degrees in history 174 00:05:52,769 --> 00:05:55,038 from Oxford University Brown University 175 00:05:55,221 --> 00:05:56,639 and is a frequent contributor 176 00:05:56,639 --> 00:05:57,740 to The New York Times. 177 00:05:58,041 --> 00:05:59,642 And the watch, The Washington Post 178 00:05:59,642 --> 00:06:01,077 and The New Yorker, Newsday. 179 00:06:01,761 --> 00:06:02,695 So I'll turn it over 180 00:06:02,695 --> 00:06:03,529 to the administrator. 181 00:06:03,529 --> 00:06:04,313 I'm going to stay on. 182 00:06:04,313 --> 00:06:05,998 But Administrator, if you would, 183 00:06:06,265 --> 00:06:07,283 go ahead and open us up. 184 00:06:08,401 --> 00:06:09,919 Well, this is a real treat 185 00:06:09,919 --> 00:06:12,055 for me to interview Jeff 186 00:06:12,422 --> 00:06:15,208 because I read the book. 187 00:06:15,208 --> 00:06:15,958 As a matter of fact, 188 00:06:15,958 --> 00:06:17,460 I listened to it on Audible 189 00:06:18,077 --> 00:06:20,513 and I couldn't put it down. 190 00:06:21,147 --> 00:06:22,548 And I've recommended it 191 00:06:22,548 --> 00:06:24,384 to a number of people. 192 00:06:25,518 --> 00:06:27,737 It captures a part 193 00:06:27,737 --> 00:06:29,489 of our American history 194 00:06:30,239 --> 00:06:32,341 that not only is important 195 00:06:32,341 --> 00:06:34,644 to organizations like NASA, 196 00:06:34,644 --> 00:06:35,962 but is important 197 00:06:36,646 --> 00:06:41,067 to the the the success of our country 198 00:06:41,934 --> 00:06:44,720 because of what we had 199 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:46,589 come out of in that 200 00:06:47,790 --> 00:06:50,760 face down with our mortal enemy, 201 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,062 the Soviet Union, with nuclear 202 00:06:54,414 --> 00:06:56,999 warheads facing each other. 203 00:06:56,999 --> 00:06:59,335 And out of this came a spark 204 00:07:00,169 --> 00:07:02,305 that suddenly we were behind. 205 00:07:02,905 --> 00:07:05,641 Suddenly they held the high ground, 206 00:07:06,259 --> 00:07:07,860 first with Sputnik 207 00:07:08,578 --> 00:07:11,781 and then with Gagarin and Titov. 208 00:07:12,598 --> 00:07:15,501 And after Gagarin had already flown, 209 00:07:15,501 --> 00:07:17,603 we could only get into some orbit 210 00:07:17,603 --> 00:07:20,606 with Shepard and with Grissom. 211 00:07:20,940 --> 00:07:25,128 And then came delay and delay. 212 00:07:25,428 --> 00:07:28,164 And then in February of 62, 213 00:07:28,998 --> 00:07:31,801 John Glenn took off on an Atlas 214 00:07:31,801 --> 00:07:34,854 that had a 20 percent chance of failure. 215 00:07:36,005 --> 00:07:38,941 And there's no looking back. 216 00:07:40,092 --> 00:07:43,479 And America won that space race, 217 00:07:44,013 --> 00:07:47,383 which ultimately allowed us 218 00:07:47,733 --> 00:07:49,619 to have a partnership. 219 00:07:50,586 --> 00:07:52,722 With the then Soviet 220 00:07:52,722 --> 00:07:54,790 Union in Apollo-Soyuz 221 00:07:55,625 --> 00:07:58,110 and now the partnership continues 222 00:07:58,110 --> 00:07:59,946 with the Russian space agency. 223 00:08:00,847 --> 00:08:03,099 And so I think Jeff has hit 224 00:08:03,099 --> 00:08:05,368 a part of American history 225 00:08:05,368 --> 00:08:06,669 that is pivotal. 226 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,121 And I want to know how 227 00:08:09,121 --> 00:08:10,656 since you've talked about 228 00:08:10,656 --> 00:08:11,891 or you've written about 229 00:08:11,891 --> 00:08:13,893 Franklin Roosevelt and all these others, 230 00:08:14,143 --> 00:08:17,530 how did you zero in on this particular 231 00:08:17,530 --> 00:08:19,832 part of our history, Jeff? 232 00:08:21,117 --> 00:08:23,436 Well, first, Administrator Nelson, 233 00:08:23,436 --> 00:08:25,638 I just want to thank you for those very, 234 00:08:25,638 --> 00:08:27,607 very kind words about the book 235 00:08:27,607 --> 00:08:29,842 and for joining us here today. 236 00:08:29,859 --> 00:08:31,511 It's really an honor to be here 237 00:08:31,511 --> 00:08:32,912 in conversation with you. 238 00:08:33,312 --> 00:08:34,797 And I want to thank Dr. 239 00:08:34,797 --> 00:08:35,998 Odom and Dr. 240 00:08:35,998 --> 00:08:37,900 Pérez-Davis for your comments 241 00:08:37,900 --> 00:08:39,218 and for joining us as well. 242 00:08:40,086 --> 00:08:42,538 It's really a thrill for me, a treat. 243 00:08:43,422 --> 00:08:45,191 And I appreciate what you said 244 00:08:45,191 --> 00:08:46,976 about the context of the book 245 00:08:46,976 --> 00:08:48,661 and the story that I'm trying to tell. 246 00:08:48,711 --> 00:08:51,180 I'd like a lot of American kids. 247 00:08:51,180 --> 00:08:52,832 I grew up fascinated 248 00:08:52,832 --> 00:08:54,333 by space and fascinated 249 00:08:54,333 --> 00:08:56,202 by the individuals 250 00:08:56,202 --> 00:08:57,570 who had flown into space 251 00:08:57,570 --> 00:09:00,273 and the heroic accomplishments 252 00:09:00,273 --> 00:09:01,507 of those Americans. 253 00:09:02,408 --> 00:09:03,843 But as I look back 254 00:09:03,843 --> 00:09:05,611 from a recent vantage point, 255 00:09:05,611 --> 00:09:07,363 I wanted to understand a little more 256 00:09:07,363 --> 00:09:09,131 of the significance 257 00:09:09,131 --> 00:09:10,216 of John Glenn's flight. 258 00:09:10,233 --> 00:09:11,651 I understood that he had 259 00:09:11,651 --> 00:09:12,868 become the first American 260 00:09:12,868 --> 00:09:14,887 to orbit the Earth and that that alone 261 00:09:15,238 --> 00:09:16,989 guaranteed him a place in history. 262 00:09:16,989 --> 00:09:20,259 But the reaction to Glenn's flight seemed 263 00:09:21,460 --> 00:09:23,879 almost wholly out of proportion to that. 264 00:09:23,879 --> 00:09:25,197 That simple fact. 265 00:09:25,197 --> 00:09:26,215 It was significant. 266 00:09:26,232 --> 00:09:28,050 But why was it so significant? 267 00:09:28,417 --> 00:09:30,069 And I think it really comes back 268 00:09:30,069 --> 00:09:31,837 to the Cold War context. 269 00:09:32,121 --> 00:09:34,257 As you Administrator Nelson 270 00:09:34,257 --> 00:09:36,726 described that the space race 271 00:09:36,726 --> 00:09:38,711 we have come to think of the space race 272 00:09:38,711 --> 00:09:40,363 as something that happened over here 273 00:09:40,363 --> 00:09:41,614 on its own timeline. 274 00:09:41,614 --> 00:09:43,649 And the Cold War was happening there 275 00:09:43,649 --> 00:09:45,101 in Berlin and in Cuba 276 00:09:45,101 --> 00:09:46,269 and in Southeast Asia. 277 00:09:46,602 --> 00:09:48,688 But at the time, they were understood 278 00:09:48,688 --> 00:09:50,590 to be part of the same conflict. 279 00:09:50,623 --> 00:09:51,991 That was certainly how President 280 00:09:51,991 --> 00:09:53,042 Kennedy understood them. 281 00:09:53,075 --> 00:09:53,943 That was certainly how 282 00:09:53,943 --> 00:09:55,211 the Mercury astronauts 283 00:09:55,528 --> 00:09:57,813 and everyone at NASA understood them, 284 00:09:57,813 --> 00:09:58,781 that it was part of this 285 00:09:58,781 --> 00:10:00,299 greater global struggle 286 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:01,751 between two systems, 287 00:10:01,751 --> 00:10:04,020 between freedom and totalitarianism. 288 00:10:04,420 --> 00:10:05,921 And when you look at it 289 00:10:05,921 --> 00:10:07,690 through that frame, then you begin 290 00:10:07,690 --> 00:10:09,508 to understand why the buildup 291 00:10:09,809 --> 00:10:10,977 before John Glenn's 292 00:10:10,977 --> 00:10:12,278 flight was so significant 293 00:10:12,278 --> 00:10:13,713 and why the response afterward 294 00:10:13,713 --> 00:10:14,580 was what it was. 295 00:10:15,481 --> 00:10:19,018 So how did President Kennedy, 296 00:10:19,018 --> 00:10:21,904 who really didn't know much about space 297 00:10:22,588 --> 00:10:25,441 and probably, as you suggest, 298 00:10:25,808 --> 00:10:27,360 didn't care a lot about it, 299 00:10:28,077 --> 00:10:31,564 but he he was he had this 300 00:10:32,164 --> 00:10:35,584 incisiveness that he could pierce through 301 00:10:35,584 --> 00:10:37,203 and he could see the political 302 00:10:37,203 --> 00:10:38,854 ramifications of something. 303 00:10:39,822 --> 00:10:44,143 And he saw that this was a moment in time 304 00:10:44,143 --> 00:10:46,896 with a technological program. 305 00:10:47,830 --> 00:10:51,667 That could vault America into the lead. 306 00:10:51,751 --> 00:10:55,287 How how did he come to that conclusion? 307 00:10:56,405 --> 00:10:57,723 He came to that conclusion 308 00:10:57,723 --> 00:10:59,925 slowly, a little reluctantly, 309 00:10:59,942 --> 00:11:01,961 but inevitably, I would say 310 00:11:02,194 --> 00:11:04,864 in the late 1950s when Lyndon Johnson 311 00:11:04,864 --> 00:11:05,948 and others in the Senate 312 00:11:05,948 --> 00:11:07,233 were leading the discussion 313 00:11:07,233 --> 00:11:08,517 nationally about space. 314 00:11:08,951 --> 00:11:09,869 John Kennedy wasn't 315 00:11:09,869 --> 00:11:11,487 particularly interested in that. 316 00:11:11,971 --> 00:11:12,822 As you said. 317 00:11:12,822 --> 00:11:15,124 But when he ran for president in 1960, 318 00:11:15,124 --> 00:11:16,776 he understood the symbolic 319 00:11:16,926 --> 00:11:19,295 the symbolic power of space 320 00:11:19,295 --> 00:11:21,480 exploration, both domestically 321 00:11:21,664 --> 00:11:23,049 for a nation that had begun 322 00:11:23,049 --> 00:11:25,201 to feel that maybe it had lost its edge 323 00:11:25,201 --> 00:11:26,552 in its initiative in the years 324 00:11:26,552 --> 00:11:29,672 since World War Two and also globally . 325 00:11:29,672 --> 00:11:30,940 In this larger struggle 326 00:11:30,940 --> 00:11:32,158 that we were talking about 327 00:11:32,158 --> 00:11:33,092 and the nations of 328 00:11:33,092 --> 00:11:34,326 the world were watching 329 00:11:34,326 --> 00:11:36,128 to see who was going to take the lead 330 00:11:36,462 --> 00:11:38,831 and made certain assumptions 331 00:11:38,831 --> 00:11:40,116 which were not unreasonable, unreasonable 332 00:11:41,350 --> 00:11:43,536 about what that said about the nation's 333 00:11:43,536 --> 00:11:44,820 scientific capacity, 334 00:11:44,820 --> 00:11:46,422 its technological capacity 335 00:11:46,722 --> 00:11:48,357 and its military capacity. 336 00:11:48,657 --> 00:11:50,559 So Kennedy in 1960 337 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,579 ran in part on the issue of space, 338 00:11:53,913 --> 00:11:55,331 and he said repeatedly 339 00:11:55,331 --> 00:11:57,249 that it was unacceptable and dangerous 340 00:11:57,249 --> 00:11:58,267 for the United States 341 00:11:58,267 --> 00:11:59,468 to be second in space. 342 00:11:59,668 --> 00:12:01,504 Now, what he didn't have at the time 343 00:12:01,887 --> 00:12:04,540 was a plan to put America in first place 344 00:12:04,540 --> 00:12:05,908 that was going to take some time 345 00:12:05,908 --> 00:12:07,226 and was going to take , frankly, 346 00:12:07,443 --> 00:12:09,011 some prodding from the Russians, 347 00:12:09,278 --> 00:12:10,529 because it was really only 348 00:12:10,529 --> 00:12:12,031 after that Gagarin flight 349 00:12:12,198 --> 00:12:14,650 that you mentioned that Kennedy awoke 350 00:12:14,650 --> 00:12:16,502 to the fact that he needed a solution 351 00:12:16,502 --> 00:12:17,520 and he needed it now. 352 00:12:19,522 --> 00:12:22,758 I recall when I was a young congressman, 353 00:12:22,758 --> 00:12:24,210 I was on the floor of the House 354 00:12:24,210 --> 00:12:26,529 one day and Tip O'Neill, 355 00:12:26,545 --> 00:12:28,464 the speaker, was there 356 00:12:28,464 --> 00:12:29,965 and he beckoned me over 357 00:12:30,716 --> 00:12:33,152 and he knew that I was going to fly. 358 00:12:33,169 --> 00:12:34,403 This is years later. 359 00:12:35,871 --> 00:12:38,991 And he says, let me tell you, 360 00:12:38,991 --> 00:12:40,643 when I was a young congressman, 361 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:42,328 young Boston congressman, 362 00:12:42,962 --> 00:12:44,880 and I was down at the White House 363 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,183 with President Kennedy, and he said 364 00:12:47,183 --> 00:12:49,401 I'd never seen the president so nervous. 365 00:12:49,401 --> 00:12:51,437 He was just pacing back and forth 366 00:12:51,437 --> 00:12:53,122 like a cat on a hot tin roof. 367 00:12:53,522 --> 00:12:56,242 And he said he pulled over to his aides 368 00:12:56,242 --> 00:12:56,659 and he said, 369 00:12:56,659 --> 00:12:57,860 what's wrong with the president? 370 00:12:58,861 --> 00:13:00,112 And they explain 371 00:13:00,112 --> 00:13:03,599 we were getting ready to fly 372 00:13:04,133 --> 00:13:06,752 Alan Shepard in suborbital 373 00:13:06,769 --> 00:13:08,871 after we had been surprised 374 00:13:08,871 --> 00:13:10,639 by Gagarin's flight 375 00:13:11,307 --> 00:13:14,176 and here we were in this catch up mode 376 00:13:14,243 --> 00:13:17,746 and he was so nervous to make 377 00:13:18,647 --> 00:13:20,816 to to want that mission 378 00:13:20,816 --> 00:13:21,717 to be a success, 379 00:13:21,717 --> 00:13:22,852 which, of course, it was. 380 00:13:23,719 --> 00:13:26,038 But then shortly after Alan Shepard, 381 00:13:26,038 --> 00:13:29,391 then Kennedy gets this bold vision 382 00:13:30,109 --> 00:13:31,577 and he goes to a joint 383 00:13:31,577 --> 00:13:32,778 session of Congress. 384 00:13:32,812 --> 00:13:34,013 Tell us about that. 385 00:13:34,730 --> 00:13:35,431 That's right. 386 00:13:35,781 --> 00:13:37,917 Well, that's that's a fascinating window 387 00:13:37,917 --> 00:13:38,667 into what Kennedy 388 00:13:38,667 --> 00:13:40,519 was experiencing at that time. 389 00:13:40,553 --> 00:13:42,571 He understood the stakes 390 00:13:42,888 --> 00:13:44,573 politically, geopolitically 391 00:13:44,573 --> 00:13:45,591 for the country. 392 00:13:45,591 --> 00:13:47,693 If if if we were to fail, 393 00:13:48,077 --> 00:13:49,495 if the Alan Shepard 394 00:13:49,495 --> 00:13:51,847 mission ended in any way in failure 395 00:13:51,881 --> 00:13:52,765 would happen before 396 00:13:52,765 --> 00:13:53,749 the eyes of the world. 397 00:13:54,116 --> 00:13:55,885 The Soviet Union, because it was, 398 00:13:55,885 --> 00:13:57,770 of course, a totalitarian state, 399 00:13:58,137 --> 00:14:00,139 was enabled to fail 400 00:14:00,139 --> 00:14:03,058 in secret, which they did when rockets 401 00:14:03,058 --> 00:14:04,293 blew up, boosters 402 00:14:04,293 --> 00:14:05,811 blew up on their launch pad. 403 00:14:06,212 --> 00:14:09,231 No one saw it who was physically present 404 00:14:09,415 --> 00:14:11,517 when one of their cosmonauts died 405 00:14:11,517 --> 00:14:13,853 in a really a horrific training accident. 406 00:14:14,820 --> 00:14:17,289 This was not known for for decades. 407 00:14:17,306 --> 00:14:21,176 And so there was an aura of invincibility 408 00:14:21,176 --> 00:14:22,411 to the Soviet program 409 00:14:22,411 --> 00:14:23,395 because all we ever saw 410 00:14:23,395 --> 00:14:24,213 were the successes. 411 00:14:24,563 --> 00:14:25,831 Whereas when our rockets 412 00:14:25,831 --> 00:14:27,266 exploded on the launch pad, 413 00:14:27,266 --> 00:14:28,801 the news cameras were there 414 00:14:28,801 --> 00:14:30,986 and it would appear in newsreels 415 00:14:30,986 --> 00:14:32,421 around the world, in the newspapers. 416 00:14:32,755 --> 00:14:35,057 So Kennedy understood these stakes. 417 00:14:35,457 --> 00:14:37,309 And it was after 418 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:39,228 Shepperd's successful flight, 419 00:14:39,278 --> 00:14:40,529 as you described, 420 00:14:40,796 --> 00:14:42,448 that he was ready to make that 421 00:14:42,448 --> 00:14:44,633 that bold commitment to go to the moon. 422 00:14:45,301 --> 00:14:47,152 The logic of it was that 423 00:14:47,152 --> 00:14:50,639 it was a long term goal, and we knew that 424 00:14:50,906 --> 00:14:51,624 there was no way 425 00:14:51,624 --> 00:14:53,275 the United States was going to catch up 426 00:14:53,275 --> 00:14:55,010 to the Soviet Union in the near term. 427 00:14:55,194 --> 00:14:56,695 They just had too big a lead 428 00:14:56,695 --> 00:14:58,681 and we had too much catching up to do. 429 00:14:58,914 --> 00:14:59,965 But if you set a goal 430 00:14:59,965 --> 00:15:02,217 that was far enough away, literally, 431 00:15:02,217 --> 00:15:03,385 I guess, in terms of the moon, 432 00:15:03,385 --> 00:15:04,770 but also in terms of time, 433 00:15:05,187 --> 00:15:06,989 that that was going to require 434 00:15:07,323 --> 00:15:08,724 new technology that hadn't 435 00:15:08,724 --> 00:15:10,075 even been imagined yet. 436 00:15:10,292 --> 00:15:12,144 It was going to require investments 437 00:15:12,144 --> 00:15:13,462 on a massive scale over 438 00:15:13,462 --> 00:15:14,630 a long period of time 439 00:15:14,847 --> 00:15:16,832 that maybe there was no guarantee, 440 00:15:16,832 --> 00:15:18,384 but maybe we would have a chance 441 00:15:18,651 --> 00:15:20,102 to leapfrog the Soviets 442 00:15:20,102 --> 00:15:20,819 on the way to the moon, 443 00:15:20,970 --> 00:15:21,804 on the way to the moon. 444 00:15:23,038 --> 00:15:24,139 Although the Congress 445 00:15:24,139 --> 00:15:26,959 did increase the funding for the program 446 00:15:26,959 --> 00:15:29,628 after that speech that was received. 447 00:15:29,929 --> 00:15:31,680 As you point out in the book, 448 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:33,799 in a kind of ho-hum fashion. 449 00:15:34,917 --> 00:15:36,952 What then propelled 450 00:15:37,987 --> 00:15:39,221 President Kennedy to 451 00:15:39,221 --> 00:15:40,889 go to Rice University, 452 00:15:41,557 --> 00:15:43,459 make a follow on speech, 453 00:15:43,475 --> 00:15:45,094 and when did that occur 454 00:15:45,094 --> 00:15:46,745 that he really poured 455 00:15:46,745 --> 00:15:48,364 the juice to the program? 456 00:15:49,148 --> 00:15:50,316 That speech occurred 457 00:15:50,316 --> 00:15:52,351 in September of 1962, 458 00:15:52,351 --> 00:15:54,153 so about a year and a half 459 00:15:54,153 --> 00:15:55,504 after the initial speech. 460 00:15:55,921 --> 00:15:57,456 And you're absolutely right. 461 00:15:57,456 --> 00:15:58,841 As I describe in the book, 462 00:15:59,591 --> 00:16:01,310 we see the soundbites 463 00:16:01,327 --> 00:16:02,378 from these speeches. 464 00:16:02,378 --> 00:16:05,981 And the boldness of Kennedy's commitment 465 00:16:06,281 --> 00:16:08,584 rings through the decades since. 466 00:16:08,584 --> 00:16:09,568 And we know, of course, 467 00:16:09,568 --> 00:16:10,869 that this was a successful 468 00:16:10,869 --> 00:16:11,787 gamble that he made, 469 00:16:11,787 --> 00:16:12,938 that we did get to the moon 470 00:16:13,172 --> 00:16:14,289 by the end of the decade. 471 00:16:14,606 --> 00:16:17,760 But as you said, the members of Congress, 472 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:19,211 the senators in that chamber, 473 00:16:19,979 --> 00:16:21,513 received it very differently 474 00:16:21,530 --> 00:16:22,598 and Kennedy knew it. 475 00:16:23,015 --> 00:16:24,099 It's really interesting 476 00:16:24,099 --> 00:16:25,467 if you go back, as I'm sure 477 00:16:25,467 --> 00:16:26,769 you have Administrator 478 00:16:26,769 --> 00:16:28,620 and you watched that full speech, 479 00:16:28,921 --> 00:16:31,123 that after he has made this pitch 480 00:16:31,123 --> 00:16:32,191 that we should get to the moon 481 00:16:32,191 --> 00:16:33,308 by the end of the decade. 482 00:16:33,642 --> 00:16:34,860 He goes off script 483 00:16:34,860 --> 00:16:36,011 and he sort of shuffles 484 00:16:36,011 --> 00:16:38,247 the pages nervously and he looks down 485 00:16:38,530 --> 00:16:40,382 and he hedges and he says 486 00:16:40,382 --> 00:16:41,667 and I'm paraphrasing here, 487 00:16:41,667 --> 00:16:43,152 he says, listen, 488 00:16:43,152 --> 00:16:45,120 this is a huge commitment, 489 00:16:45,788 --> 00:16:47,823 both in terms of the federal budget 490 00:16:47,823 --> 00:16:49,341 and every other way. 491 00:16:49,358 --> 00:16:51,477 And I ask you, the Congress, 492 00:16:51,493 --> 00:16:52,961 the American people, to make sure 493 00:16:52,961 --> 00:16:53,946 that you're committed to it, 494 00:16:53,946 --> 00:16:54,897 because if you're not, 495 00:16:55,180 --> 00:16:56,315 the worst thing in the world 496 00:16:56,315 --> 00:16:57,900 would be to start along that path 497 00:16:58,150 --> 00:16:59,435 and then fail to get there. 498 00:16:59,818 --> 00:17:01,737 And when he went back to the White House, 499 00:17:01,737 --> 00:17:02,404 he talked to his 500 00:17:02,404 --> 00:17:03,839 speechwriter, Ted Sorensen, 501 00:17:03,839 --> 00:17:04,840 and he said, in effect, 502 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:05,941 I don't think I sold it. 503 00:17:06,125 --> 00:17:08,961 I was reading the body language of 504 00:17:09,511 --> 00:17:11,530 of the members in my line of sight. 505 00:17:11,830 --> 00:17:13,399 And I don't think they were buying it. 506 00:17:13,415 --> 00:17:15,484 And in fact, the press wasn't 507 00:17:15,484 --> 00:17:16,618 as excited about it 508 00:17:16,618 --> 00:17:17,703 as Kennedy might have hoped. 509 00:17:17,703 --> 00:17:19,688 The newspaper coverage the next day. 510 00:17:20,022 --> 00:17:21,907 Focus not on the great adventure 511 00:17:21,940 --> 00:17:23,742 of going to the moon, but on the cost, 512 00:17:23,909 --> 00:17:25,828 which was a concern of Kennedy's as well. 513 00:17:26,195 --> 00:17:28,147 So it took some time for him to lead 514 00:17:28,147 --> 00:17:29,231 the American public 515 00:17:29,548 --> 00:17:32,101 and the members of Congress 516 00:17:32,101 --> 00:17:33,669 toward this goal along with him. 517 00:17:34,803 --> 00:17:37,923 So 10 months later, John Glenn 518 00:17:38,307 --> 00:17:40,059 launches successfully. 519 00:17:41,460 --> 00:17:44,496 The nation is absolutely riveted 520 00:17:44,496 --> 00:17:46,598 to this all-American boy 521 00:17:47,950 --> 00:17:51,670 who is now bringing the U.S. 522 00:17:51,687 --> 00:17:53,288 out of the doldrums. 523 00:17:54,073 --> 00:17:56,592 And is it at that point 524 00:17:56,825 --> 00:17:59,578 that Kennedy then pours 525 00:17:59,578 --> 00:18:01,380 the juice to it and says, 526 00:18:01,830 --> 00:18:03,782 we're going to do this in the decade 527 00:18:03,782 --> 00:18:06,001 and and we're going to be successful? 528 00:18:06,752 --> 00:18:08,771 He had announced the goal 529 00:18:09,488 --> 00:18:10,739 prior to Glenn's flight. 530 00:18:10,739 --> 00:18:12,040 He had announced the goal of 531 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:12,608 going to the moon 532 00:18:12,608 --> 00:18:13,959 by the end of the decade back in 533 00:18:13,959 --> 00:18:15,461 that May 61 flight. 534 00:18:15,811 --> 00:18:17,613 And Glenn doesn't fly, as you noted, 535 00:18:17,613 --> 00:18:19,381 until February of 62. 536 00:18:19,782 --> 00:18:21,717 But he that really is the moment, 537 00:18:21,900 --> 00:18:23,285 as as you've said, 538 00:18:23,285 --> 00:18:24,536 when he begins to pour it 539 00:18:24,536 --> 00:18:27,272 on, because the the the moon shot 540 00:18:27,272 --> 00:18:29,308 goal just was not credible. 541 00:18:29,758 --> 00:18:31,243 Prior to Glenn's flight. 542 00:18:31,710 --> 00:18:33,846 And it wasn't as if Glenn's flight itself 543 00:18:33,846 --> 00:18:34,897 meant that we were certain 544 00:18:34,897 --> 00:18:35,731 to get to the moon 545 00:18:35,731 --> 00:18:36,582 or that we were certain 546 00:18:36,582 --> 00:18:37,900 to get there before the Soviets. 547 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:39,034 But it really, for 548 00:18:39,034 --> 00:18:41,069 the first moment, Americans 549 00:18:41,069 --> 00:18:42,604 and our allies around the world 550 00:18:42,604 --> 00:18:44,940 were able to believe we had a shot. 551 00:18:45,157 --> 00:18:46,241 This was possible. 552 00:18:46,441 --> 00:18:47,526 This was what made the 553 00:18:47,526 --> 00:18:48,961 moon shot goal credible, 554 00:18:48,961 --> 00:18:51,630 even as I understand it, within NASA, 555 00:18:52,531 --> 00:18:53,382 within NASA, 556 00:18:53,382 --> 00:18:54,066 there was a lot of 557 00:18:54,066 --> 00:18:55,417 excitement about the goal 558 00:18:55,417 --> 00:18:56,552 and there was a commitment 559 00:18:56,552 --> 00:18:57,636 to the goal, certainly. 560 00:18:57,753 --> 00:18:58,537 But there was also 561 00:18:58,537 --> 00:19:00,372 a lot of doubt and skepticism, 562 00:19:00,873 --> 00:19:01,590 because, of course, 563 00:19:01,590 --> 00:19:03,725 those who were most intimately involved 564 00:19:03,725 --> 00:19:04,776 with the space program 565 00:19:05,010 --> 00:19:06,879 knew what a struggle it had been 566 00:19:06,879 --> 00:19:08,430 just to get these few men 567 00:19:08,430 --> 00:19:09,581 that we've been talking about 568 00:19:09,882 --> 00:19:12,067 into the suborbital range 569 00:19:12,067 --> 00:19:13,452 and then ultimately this orbital 570 00:19:13,452 --> 00:19:14,253 flight of Glenns. 571 00:19:15,437 --> 00:19:17,739 So among the original seven 572 00:19:17,756 --> 00:19:18,907 and of course, they get 573 00:19:18,907 --> 00:19:21,276 extraordinary publicity, but. 574 00:19:22,377 --> 00:19:24,680 Glenn rises to the top 575 00:19:25,781 --> 00:19:26,598 as. 576 00:19:28,217 --> 00:19:29,868 The all-American boy, 577 00:19:30,402 --> 00:19:32,020 this incredible story 578 00:19:32,020 --> 00:19:33,772 of a devotion to a wife, 579 00:19:34,873 --> 00:19:36,608 Annie, having this speech 580 00:19:36,608 --> 00:19:39,127 impediment are just 581 00:19:39,278 --> 00:19:40,729 just down the line, 582 00:19:41,513 --> 00:19:43,599 American red, white and blue. 583 00:19:44,333 --> 00:19:46,568 But there was fierce competition 584 00:19:46,568 --> 00:19:48,704 and John felt rejected 585 00:19:49,221 --> 00:19:52,491 because Alan Shepard and then Grissom. 586 00:19:53,275 --> 00:19:55,077 And yet he ends up 587 00:19:55,577 --> 00:19:57,079 getting the cake 588 00:19:57,079 --> 00:19:58,697 with the cherry on top. 589 00:19:59,665 --> 00:20:01,550 With the first orbital flight. 590 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:03,268 Tell us about that. 591 00:20:04,620 --> 00:20:05,971 Well, you're absolutely 592 00:20:05,971 --> 00:20:08,307 right in describing the way that Glenn 593 00:20:08,307 --> 00:20:09,508 was seen and understood, 594 00:20:09,508 --> 00:20:11,076 and this is really who he was. 595 00:20:11,677 --> 00:20:12,277 I mean, they would 596 00:20:12,277 --> 00:20:14,079 often tease him, the other astronauts, 597 00:20:14,079 --> 00:20:15,364 and they call him the Boy Scout 598 00:20:15,364 --> 00:20:17,032 or they call him a Sunday school teacher. 599 00:20:17,049 --> 00:20:18,300 He was both of those things. 600 00:20:18,667 --> 00:20:20,886 He was also and they knew this as well. 601 00:20:20,919 --> 00:20:23,472 He was also the most decorated combat 602 00:20:23,472 --> 00:20:25,140 pilot of the entire group. 603 00:20:25,474 --> 00:20:26,558 Not all of them had even 604 00:20:29,945 --> 00:20:27,459 fought in combat. 605 00:20:29,945 --> 00:20:31,647 And it was sort of a sore spot with him. 606 00:20:31,647 --> 00:20:33,782 They were all brilliant test pilots. 607 00:20:33,782 --> 00:20:37,085 But but Glenn was was the most successful 608 00:20:37,085 --> 00:20:38,770 of all of them in war time 609 00:20:39,154 --> 00:20:41,757 and had also been the only one as a test 610 00:20:41,757 --> 00:20:44,076 pilot who had achieved national fame. 611 00:20:44,559 --> 00:20:46,962 He in 1957, had set us 612 00:20:47,112 --> 00:20:48,747 headed, set a speed record 613 00:20:49,114 --> 00:20:50,649 flying a crusader jet 614 00:20:50,916 --> 00:20:51,900 from Los Angeles 615 00:20:51,900 --> 00:20:53,252 to Brooklyn in three hours 616 00:20:53,252 --> 00:20:54,186 and 23 minutes. 617 00:20:54,186 --> 00:20:55,420 And he wound up on the front page 618 00:20:55,420 --> 00:20:56,922 of every newspaper in America. 619 00:20:57,222 --> 00:20:59,258 He wound up with a multi week 620 00:20:59,258 --> 00:21:01,960 stint on name that tune on on CBS 621 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:02,711 as a contestant. 622 00:21:03,161 --> 00:21:04,796 He became a celebrity 623 00:21:04,796 --> 00:21:06,214 and he became really adored 624 00:21:06,298 --> 00:21:08,083 by the American public. 625 00:21:08,350 --> 00:21:09,518 So when they're selected 626 00:21:09,518 --> 00:21:12,154 as as astronauts in 1959 627 00:21:12,154 --> 00:21:14,072 and they're introduced to the public, 628 00:21:14,439 --> 00:21:15,991 Glenn is already very well known. 629 00:21:16,325 --> 00:21:17,676 And there is a sense 630 00:21:17,676 --> 00:21:18,910 on the part of the public, 631 00:21:18,910 --> 00:21:19,962 on the part of the press 632 00:21:19,962 --> 00:21:21,480 and even many in NASA, that, 633 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:22,331 of course, Glenn, 634 00:21:22,331 --> 00:21:23,699 will win this competition 635 00:21:23,699 --> 00:21:25,000 to be the first in space. 636 00:21:25,267 --> 00:21:27,135 He stands above all of them. 637 00:21:27,686 --> 00:21:29,638 Really, any way you look at it 638 00:21:29,972 --> 00:21:31,406 and Glenn expected 639 00:21:31,506 --> 00:21:32,958 that he was going to come out on top. 640 00:21:32,991 --> 00:21:35,427 Now, in fairness, so did Alan Shepard 641 00:21:35,610 --> 00:21:38,380 and so did Deke Slayton, and so did most, 642 00:21:38,380 --> 00:21:39,631 if not all of the others. 643 00:21:39,631 --> 00:21:40,799 They were used to winning. 644 00:21:40,799 --> 00:21:41,967 They were used to leading. 645 00:21:42,484 --> 00:21:43,835 And so it was a huge 646 00:21:43,835 --> 00:21:45,570 shock to Glenn system 647 00:21:46,288 --> 00:21:48,690 when Alan Shepard was selected first. 648 00:21:49,091 --> 00:21:50,108 Gus Grissom, as you 649 00:21:50,108 --> 00:21:51,310 said, was selected second. 650 00:21:51,310 --> 00:21:53,712 And Glenn was made backup to both, 651 00:21:53,712 --> 00:21:54,880 which in a way was adding 652 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:55,897 insult to injury. 653 00:21:56,164 --> 00:21:57,699 It was very tough for him 654 00:21:57,699 --> 00:21:58,650 for a period of time 655 00:21:58,900 --> 00:22:00,218 to accept that, in fact, 656 00:22:00,969 --> 00:22:02,487 he didn't accept it at first. 657 00:22:02,487 --> 00:22:03,872 He wrote a letter of protest 658 00:22:03,872 --> 00:22:05,340 to Bob Gilreath, 659 00:22:05,340 --> 00:22:06,725 the head of the space task 660 00:22:06,725 --> 00:22:07,843 group, who made the decision. 661 00:22:08,143 --> 00:22:10,028 He didn't get very far with that protest. 662 00:22:10,562 --> 00:22:12,964 But as as you said, Administrator Nelson, 663 00:22:12,964 --> 00:22:14,816 he wound up with the bigger prize, 664 00:22:15,133 --> 00:22:16,985 which was the first orbital flight. 665 00:22:16,985 --> 00:22:18,870 And there was a lot of luck to that. 666 00:22:18,870 --> 00:22:20,072 Just in terms of the timing. 667 00:22:20,072 --> 00:22:21,340 If he'd been selected first, 668 00:22:21,490 --> 00:22:22,024 then he wouldn't 669 00:22:22,024 --> 00:22:23,258 have gotten the orbital flight 670 00:22:23,558 --> 00:22:24,576 and the orbital flight. 671 00:22:24,576 --> 00:22:25,627 By the time it happened. 672 00:22:25,627 --> 00:22:26,945 It assumed greater 673 00:22:26,945 --> 00:22:28,263 and greater significance 674 00:22:28,563 --> 00:22:29,398 for some of the reasons 675 00:22:29,398 --> 00:22:30,449 we talked about earlier. 676 00:22:31,650 --> 00:22:33,935 And afterwards, he didn't 677 00:22:33,935 --> 00:22:35,137 get to fly again. 678 00:22:35,220 --> 00:22:37,572 I always heard that it was Kennedy 679 00:22:37,956 --> 00:22:40,058 that said, you can't fly again, 680 00:22:40,092 --> 00:22:41,860 you're too much of a national hero. 681 00:22:42,310 --> 00:22:43,678 But you suggest something 682 00:22:43,678 --> 00:22:44,763 different in your book. 683 00:22:46,148 --> 00:22:48,266 This is a story that had and in a way 684 00:22:48,283 --> 00:22:49,768 still has a lot of currency 685 00:22:49,768 --> 00:22:51,119 because it's hard to explain. 686 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:52,537 Otherwise, why wouldn't John 687 00:22:52,537 --> 00:22:53,889 Glenn go back into space? 688 00:22:54,639 --> 00:22:56,591 It was an incredibly successful mission, 689 00:22:56,591 --> 00:22:57,959 and these were never supposed 690 00:22:57,959 --> 00:22:58,977 to be one and done. 691 00:22:58,977 --> 00:22:59,828 It wasn't, you know, 692 00:22:59,828 --> 00:23:01,113 get to the back of the line 693 00:23:01,113 --> 00:23:02,647 or fall out of the program. 694 00:23:02,998 --> 00:23:04,900 So he and the rest of the country 695 00:23:04,900 --> 00:23:05,801 really expected that 696 00:23:05,801 --> 00:23:07,202 he was going back into space. 697 00:23:07,536 --> 00:23:08,136 And in fact, 698 00:23:08,136 --> 00:23:09,271 there were a lot of predictions, 699 00:23:09,271 --> 00:23:10,422 including one made by 700 00:23:10,655 --> 00:23:13,024 by your predecessor, James Webb, 701 00:23:13,258 --> 00:23:15,210 that perhaps Glenn would be the first 702 00:23:15,477 --> 00:23:16,528 to walk on the moon. 703 00:23:16,928 --> 00:23:18,363 This was the expectation. 704 00:23:18,663 --> 00:23:19,831 And so it seemed that 705 00:23:19,831 --> 00:23:21,483 the only way to explain 706 00:23:21,483 --> 00:23:23,585 the fact that this didn't transpire 707 00:23:23,585 --> 00:23:24,936 was that President Kennedy 708 00:23:24,936 --> 00:23:26,371 had seen the importance of Glenn 709 00:23:26,371 --> 00:23:27,422 as a national symbol 710 00:23:27,422 --> 00:23:29,374 and ruled it out on safety concerns. 711 00:23:29,708 --> 00:23:30,342 But there's really 712 00:23:30,342 --> 00:23:31,810 no evidence of this at all. 713 00:23:31,827 --> 00:23:33,728 And Glenn heard this story 714 00:23:33,728 --> 00:23:34,963 and maybe found a little bit 715 00:23:34,963 --> 00:23:36,248 of comfort in this story. 716 00:23:36,248 --> 00:23:38,100 And he told it in later years 717 00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:39,618 as something that he had heard, 718 00:23:39,634 --> 00:23:40,502 not something that didn't 719 00:23:40,502 --> 00:23:41,553 necessarily happen. 720 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,271 But there's really no evidence 721 00:23:43,271 --> 00:23:45,006 that Kennedy ever got involved 722 00:23:45,006 --> 00:23:46,591 in making these sorts of decisions. 723 00:23:47,459 --> 00:23:50,195 Tell us about writing his children 724 00:23:50,679 --> 00:23:52,714 a letter before the flight 725 00:23:52,831 --> 00:23:54,449 saying he might not make it. 726 00:23:56,001 --> 00:23:59,671 This was the most startling thing 727 00:23:59,671 --> 00:24:01,823 that I found document that I found 728 00:24:01,823 --> 00:24:03,775 that the Glenn Archives at Ohio State, 729 00:24:03,775 --> 00:24:05,310 which is an incredible collection 730 00:24:05,310 --> 00:24:06,711 of his materials . 731 00:24:06,711 --> 00:24:07,946 And I wasn't looking for it. 732 00:24:08,146 --> 00:24:10,015 There's always a serendipity to these 733 00:24:10,015 --> 00:24:12,117 these sorts of research missions. 734 00:24:12,117 --> 00:24:13,952 And there was in a folder, 735 00:24:13,952 --> 00:24:15,537 and it took me a little while 736 00:24:15,537 --> 00:24:16,688 to figure out what it was. 737 00:24:16,705 --> 00:24:19,374 It was a script that he had written for, 738 00:24:19,374 --> 00:24:21,409 as you said, a recording that he made 739 00:24:21,810 --> 00:24:24,146 that was meant to be played 740 00:24:24,146 --> 00:24:24,946 for his children, 741 00:24:24,946 --> 00:24:26,898 who were teenagers as two kids 742 00:24:27,382 --> 00:24:28,767 if he didn't come back alive. 743 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:30,302 And he also made a recording 744 00:24:30,302 --> 00:24:31,970 for his wife, Annie, as well. 745 00:24:32,337 --> 00:24:33,922 And this script makes clear 746 00:24:33,922 --> 00:24:36,691 this was a very, very frank recording. 747 00:24:36,708 --> 00:24:38,660 It begins if you hear this, 748 00:24:38,660 --> 00:24:39,444 I've been killed. 749 00:24:40,078 --> 00:24:42,497 And he goes on to talk about his belief 750 00:24:42,497 --> 00:24:44,399 in God as belief in an afterlife. 751 00:24:44,749 --> 00:24:46,434 He even talks about a signal 752 00:24:46,434 --> 00:24:47,219 that he wants to 753 00:24:47,219 --> 00:24:49,321 send his kids from heaven 754 00:24:49,471 --> 00:24:51,122 so that they know that he's there 755 00:24:51,122 --> 00:24:52,140 and that he's OK. 756 00:24:52,591 --> 00:24:54,626 He talks to them about the funeral 757 00:24:54,676 --> 00:24:58,230 that he will have at Arlington, in which 758 00:24:59,364 --> 00:25:00,899 case in which there probably wouldn't 759 00:25:00,899 --> 00:25:03,018 be a body to bury. 760 00:25:03,051 --> 00:25:05,253 I mean, very, very difficult, frank 761 00:25:05,253 --> 00:25:07,189 stuff that he wanted to be sure 762 00:25:07,255 --> 00:25:10,008 that he said what he needed to say 763 00:25:10,909 --> 00:25:12,811 directly to his kids in this way. 764 00:25:12,811 --> 00:25:13,495 And in fact. 765 00:25:13,979 --> 00:25:16,398 And I found this to be a really moving. 766 00:25:16,698 --> 00:25:19,134 And and in a way, surprising fact 767 00:25:19,134 --> 00:25:21,570 that when Glenn was in that capsule 768 00:25:21,570 --> 00:25:22,671 and he was strapped in 769 00:25:22,671 --> 00:25:24,739 and he was sitting atop that Atlas rocket 770 00:25:24,739 --> 00:25:26,391 and he was getting ready for liftoff 771 00:25:26,391 --> 00:25:28,660 and the countdown was was going down, 772 00:25:28,710 --> 00:25:29,611 he was patched through 773 00:25:29,611 --> 00:25:30,629 to say goodbye to Annie. 774 00:25:31,129 --> 00:25:32,280 And one of the last things 775 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:33,448 that he said, Annie, was, 776 00:25:33,598 --> 00:25:35,600 did you get the recordings that I made? 777 00:25:35,967 --> 00:25:37,352 This was very much on his mind. 778 00:25:40,422 --> 00:25:42,374 And of course, this 779 00:25:42,857 --> 00:25:44,809 larger than life person. 780 00:25:46,127 --> 00:25:47,295 He doesn't fly. 781 00:25:47,329 --> 00:25:50,715 He years later convinces 782 00:25:50,715 --> 00:25:52,867 your former boss, President Clinton, 783 00:25:53,385 --> 00:25:55,787 to let him be a part 784 00:25:55,787 --> 00:25:58,206 of the space shuttle program 785 00:25:58,206 --> 00:26:01,059 and does that extraordinarily. 786 00:26:01,092 --> 00:26:04,429 At age 77, of which 787 00:26:04,429 --> 00:26:06,615 I talked to those crew members 788 00:26:06,615 --> 00:26:09,534 and they said John participated 789 00:26:09,534 --> 00:26:12,587 in everything at that age 790 00:26:12,587 --> 00:26:14,356 and did it exceptionally. 791 00:26:16,274 --> 00:26:18,760 But his life was also 792 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,829 a series of disappointments. 793 00:26:21,930 --> 00:26:24,099 He talks to the Kennedys. 794 00:26:24,099 --> 00:26:25,934 They want him to run for the Senate. 795 00:26:27,469 --> 00:26:29,638 He slips in the bathroom. 796 00:26:30,572 --> 00:26:31,823 Has an inner ear 797 00:26:31,823 --> 00:26:33,925 problem, has to back out 798 00:26:33,925 --> 00:26:36,227 of the first Senate race, runs 799 00:26:36,227 --> 00:26:38,330 the next Senate race and loses. 800 00:26:39,497 --> 00:26:40,849 And here he is, this 801 00:26:40,849 --> 00:26:43,668 national icon, and yet. 802 00:26:45,203 --> 00:26:46,821 He has to go through 803 00:26:46,821 --> 00:26:49,157 suffering again twice 804 00:26:49,708 --> 00:26:51,326 before he's elected. 805 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:53,962 Talk about that and talk 806 00:26:53,962 --> 00:26:55,730 about his success as senator. 807 00:26:56,398 --> 00:26:57,599 That's absolutely right. 808 00:26:57,716 --> 00:27:00,235 I mean, it's easy to look back and gloss 809 00:27:00,235 --> 00:27:02,070 over all this and see this 810 00:27:02,070 --> 00:27:03,438 as a as a charmed life. 811 00:27:03,438 --> 00:27:05,156 And, of course, in many ways it was. 812 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:07,108 And yet at the same time, 813 00:27:07,108 --> 00:27:08,760 there were big disappointments. 814 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:10,495 That was, at least for a while, 815 00:27:10,495 --> 00:27:11,630 a huge disappointment 816 00:27:11,630 --> 00:27:12,714 that he didn't get to fly 817 00:27:12,747 --> 00:27:13,848 first or second. 818 00:27:14,132 --> 00:27:15,050 And that took time 819 00:27:15,050 --> 00:27:16,368 for him to to reckon with. 820 00:27:16,368 --> 00:27:18,253 There was the fact that he never got that 821 00:27:18,586 --> 00:27:20,789 that chance to fly in Gemini, 822 00:27:20,789 --> 00:27:21,990 that he was not invited 823 00:27:21,990 --> 00:27:23,725 to be part of the Apollo program, 824 00:27:24,092 --> 00:27:25,794 that it was clear that they were trying 825 00:27:25,794 --> 00:27:27,929 to edge him out into a desk job 826 00:27:28,229 --> 00:27:29,064 that he didn't want. 827 00:27:29,247 --> 00:27:30,298 He wanted to fly. 828 00:27:30,348 --> 00:27:32,701 And so finally, he accepted 829 00:27:32,701 --> 00:27:34,169 the entreaties of the Kennedys, 830 00:27:34,352 --> 00:27:35,670 as you suggested, 831 00:27:35,970 --> 00:27:38,606 and decided to run for Senate in 64. 832 00:27:38,606 --> 00:27:40,492 But that injury took him out of the race, 833 00:27:40,859 --> 00:27:41,760 and it was more than 834 00:27:42,293 --> 00:27:43,561 being taken out of the race. 835 00:27:43,561 --> 00:27:45,280 But the recovery was very slow. 836 00:27:45,296 --> 00:27:46,348 It was very painful. 837 00:27:46,681 --> 00:27:48,600 It would take him 10 minutes 838 00:27:48,767 --> 00:27:50,035 to essentially 839 00:27:50,035 --> 00:27:52,187 almost crawl along the wall 840 00:27:52,187 --> 00:27:53,221 to get from his bed 841 00:27:53,221 --> 00:27:54,973 to the couch in the morning. 842 00:27:54,989 --> 00:27:57,359 And this is a vigorous guy 843 00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,177 who had just been up in space 844 00:27:59,177 --> 00:28:01,946 and had aced every physical test 845 00:28:01,946 --> 00:28:02,731 that he had ever taken. 846 00:28:02,731 --> 00:28:04,382 He never had an injury in war time. 847 00:28:04,816 --> 00:28:05,667 And so these were 848 00:28:05,700 --> 00:28:07,452 these were tough things to recover from. 849 00:28:07,469 --> 00:28:08,236 And then, as you said, 850 00:28:08,236 --> 00:28:09,504 the political losses 851 00:28:09,504 --> 00:28:10,939 and then runs for president, 852 00:28:10,939 --> 00:28:12,924 as we know, in 1984. 853 00:28:12,924 --> 00:28:14,509 And even though initially 854 00:28:14,509 --> 00:28:15,960 the Reagan White House saw him 855 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:17,278 as the strongest Democratic 856 00:28:17,278 --> 00:28:18,863 challenger, didn't emerge that way 857 00:28:18,863 --> 00:28:19,614 and he didn't wind up 858 00:28:19,614 --> 00:28:21,349 winning a single primary. 859 00:28:21,383 --> 00:28:25,787 So there is there is no Glenn understood. 860 00:28:25,787 --> 00:28:27,088 He often talked about his faith 861 00:28:27,088 --> 00:28:28,339 this way, that that 862 00:28:28,406 --> 00:28:29,574 being a person of faith 863 00:28:29,758 --> 00:28:31,192 gave you no guarantees. 864 00:28:31,192 --> 00:28:32,610 It was, as he often said, 865 00:28:32,610 --> 00:28:34,162 and this was his mother's advice. 866 00:28:34,579 --> 00:28:36,331 It was a 50/50 proposition. 867 00:28:36,715 --> 00:28:39,017 And 50 percent of it at least was up to 868 00:28:39,017 --> 00:28:40,702 you and your hard work. 869 00:28:40,702 --> 00:28:42,387 And you were going to succeed 870 00:28:42,387 --> 00:28:43,321 and you were going to fail 871 00:28:43,321 --> 00:28:44,389 and you had to keep at it. 872 00:28:44,689 --> 00:28:45,740 And that was very much 873 00:28:45,740 --> 00:28:47,575 the way he approached not only his 874 00:28:47,876 --> 00:28:49,861 his life as a pilot and an astronaut, 875 00:28:49,861 --> 00:28:51,179 but as a politician as well. 876 00:28:52,647 --> 00:28:55,233 Did John have an appreciation 877 00:28:55,266 --> 00:28:57,335 of what Lyndon Johnson 878 00:28:57,335 --> 00:28:59,370 had done for the space program, 879 00:28:59,370 --> 00:29:02,257 because Kennedy gave the inspiration, 880 00:29:02,257 --> 00:29:03,875 but a lot of the implementation 881 00:29:03,875 --> 00:29:05,009 was Lyndon Johnson. 882 00:29:06,027 --> 00:29:06,611 He did. 883 00:29:06,961 --> 00:29:07,812 He was aware. 884 00:29:07,812 --> 00:29:09,514 And I think there was a lot of awareness 885 00:29:09,514 --> 00:29:10,865 within NASA, certainly, 886 00:29:10,865 --> 00:29:12,600 and on the part of the astronauts 887 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,068 that Lyndon Johnson had done 888 00:29:14,068 --> 00:29:15,603 more than really anybody. 889 00:29:15,603 --> 00:29:17,322 And that includes Eisenhower 890 00:29:17,322 --> 00:29:19,507 and that includes Kennedy to really 891 00:29:19,891 --> 00:29:22,026 drive the space program forward 892 00:29:22,260 --> 00:29:24,012 in its most difficult period, 893 00:29:24,329 --> 00:29:26,131 to give it proper footing, 894 00:29:26,131 --> 00:29:27,482 to get the proper funding 895 00:29:27,749 --> 00:29:28,683 and to set America 896 00:29:28,683 --> 00:29:29,801 on the path to the moon. 897 00:29:30,485 --> 00:29:31,603 They were well aware of that. 898 00:29:31,603 --> 00:29:33,638 And in fact, when the astronauts 899 00:29:34,139 --> 00:29:35,907 had just been introduced to the public, 900 00:29:35,907 --> 00:29:37,842 as I mentioned, in 1959, they 901 00:29:38,143 --> 00:29:39,160 they were sent to Capitol 902 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:40,662 Hill for for a tour. 903 00:29:41,312 --> 00:29:42,997 Nixon, the vice president, stopped 904 00:29:42,997 --> 00:29:44,015 by, did a quick meet 905 00:29:44,015 --> 00:29:45,066 and greet and the photo 906 00:29:45,066 --> 00:29:47,101 on the Capitol steps and was gone. 907 00:29:47,135 --> 00:29:49,170 Eisenhower didn't have had time for them, 908 00:29:49,537 --> 00:29:51,840 but then they were ushered into Lyndon 909 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:53,608 Johnson's palatial rooms, 910 00:29:53,608 --> 00:29:54,209 which, of course, 911 00:29:54,993 --> 00:29:56,945 you know very well were referred to 912 00:29:56,978 --> 00:29:58,596 as as the Taj Mahal. 913 00:29:58,980 --> 00:29:59,998 And this was really 914 00:29:59,998 --> 00:30:01,149 the meeting that mattered. 915 00:30:01,182 --> 00:30:02,133 They were meeting the 916 00:30:02,784 --> 00:30:05,787 the American who was, again, doing more 917 00:30:05,787 --> 00:30:08,490 for the space race than in any other. 918 00:30:09,941 --> 00:30:12,577 So I know we're almost out of time, 919 00:30:12,577 --> 00:30:14,979 but you as a historian, 920 00:30:14,979 --> 00:30:18,600 if you would look and compare, 921 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,486 we were in this space race 922 00:30:21,936 --> 00:30:23,221 with the Soviets. 923 00:30:24,038 --> 00:30:26,558 We were able to compete 924 00:30:26,825 --> 00:30:29,861 and ultimately win a victory. 925 00:30:29,861 --> 00:30:32,313 And here we are over 926 00:30:32,313 --> 00:30:33,965 a half century later, 927 00:30:34,782 --> 00:30:37,051 and we now have a very 928 00:30:37,051 --> 00:30:38,887 aggressive competitor 929 00:30:38,887 --> 00:30:41,039 in the Chinese government 930 00:30:41,039 --> 00:30:43,107 and its space program. 931 00:30:43,808 --> 00:30:46,778 And they are challenging right and left 932 00:30:46,778 --> 00:30:49,197 and make no bones about it publicly 933 00:30:49,347 --> 00:30:50,582 that that's what they're doing. 934 00:30:50,982 --> 00:30:53,401 You want to compare the two space races? 935 00:30:54,335 --> 00:30:55,203 Absolutely. 936 00:30:55,203 --> 00:30:57,872 And I think I have followed with interest 937 00:30:57,906 --> 00:30:59,340 your statements and 938 00:30:59,340 --> 00:31:00,775 your leadership on this issue. 939 00:31:00,775 --> 00:31:01,893 You've been very clear 940 00:31:02,577 --> 00:31:04,796 about the challenge that we face from 941 00:31:04,812 --> 00:31:06,180 from China in space. 942 00:31:06,180 --> 00:31:07,799 And, of course, the relationship, 943 00:31:08,166 --> 00:31:10,051 as President Kennedy often stressed, 944 00:31:10,051 --> 00:31:11,436 as Lyndon Johnson stressed, 945 00:31:12,003 --> 00:31:12,837 the relationship 946 00:31:12,837 --> 00:31:14,322 between what happens in space 947 00:31:14,322 --> 00:31:15,356 and what happens on Earth. 948 00:31:16,024 --> 00:31:18,509 And these things are not separate. 949 00:31:18,993 --> 00:31:20,562 And they are part 950 00:31:20,578 --> 00:31:22,947 of, as you have said, the administrator, 951 00:31:23,197 --> 00:31:24,816 their part of the same 952 00:31:25,166 --> 00:31:28,019 larger struggle, again, between freedom 953 00:31:28,019 --> 00:31:29,254 and totalitarianism 954 00:31:29,254 --> 00:31:30,755 in our in our own era. 955 00:31:31,055 --> 00:31:32,040 Sometimes it takes 956 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,193 a competition like this to get America 957 00:31:35,193 --> 00:31:37,328 to wake up and get up 958 00:31:37,328 --> 00:31:38,396 and commit to the fight. 959 00:31:38,796 --> 00:31:40,598 But I think what's clear now, 960 00:31:40,598 --> 00:31:41,616 what I hope is clear 961 00:31:41,616 --> 00:31:43,001 now is what became clear 962 00:31:43,001 --> 00:31:44,018 to President Kennedy 963 00:31:44,319 --> 00:31:47,422 in 1961, that there was no backing out. 964 00:31:47,438 --> 00:31:48,840 There was no opting out. 965 00:31:49,140 --> 00:31:50,441 That this was a challenge. 966 00:31:50,441 --> 00:31:52,660 That if we were not going to engage in it 967 00:31:52,660 --> 00:31:53,912 and on on our terms, 968 00:31:54,245 --> 00:31:55,380 then our adversaries 969 00:31:55,380 --> 00:31:56,531 were going to set the terms. 970 00:31:56,848 --> 00:31:58,866 And they did not always have 971 00:31:58,866 --> 00:32:01,452 the peaceful purposes that we did. 972 00:32:02,136 --> 00:32:04,022 They did not always intend in space 973 00:32:04,022 --> 00:32:05,790 to act, as the Space Act said, 974 00:32:06,190 --> 00:32:07,809 on behalf of all mankind. 975 00:32:08,226 --> 00:32:10,111 And so I think that there's 976 00:32:10,111 --> 00:32:11,462 again, there's there's 977 00:32:11,613 --> 00:32:13,381 there's no opting out. 978 00:32:13,564 --> 00:32:14,649 This is a challenge 979 00:32:14,649 --> 00:32:17,402 that whether we created it or not, 980 00:32:18,152 --> 00:32:19,687 we must engage in it. 981 00:32:19,954 --> 00:32:20,772 It's important 982 00:32:20,772 --> 00:32:22,006 not just symbolically 983 00:32:22,006 --> 00:32:24,242 have been in all sorts of practical ways. 984 00:32:25,627 --> 00:32:26,411 Well, Jeff, it's 985 00:32:26,411 --> 00:32:28,746 been a delight for me to interview you, 986 00:32:28,746 --> 00:32:31,783 and I am looking forward 987 00:32:31,783 --> 00:32:34,919 to reading anything else that you write 988 00:32:35,353 --> 00:32:38,022 because the words came to life 989 00:32:38,406 --> 00:32:40,108 off the page to me. 990 00:32:41,309 --> 00:32:43,478 And thank you for the insight 991 00:32:44,228 --> 00:32:46,497 that you have at a critical time. 992 00:32:47,015 --> 00:32:48,349 People often forget. 993 00:32:48,366 --> 00:32:52,720 Just think in that era when John flew 994 00:32:54,422 --> 00:32:56,374 Kennedy had been embarrassed 995 00:32:56,908 --> 00:33:00,244 by Khrushchev in Europe 996 00:33:00,361 --> 00:33:01,713 in their first summit. 997 00:33:03,181 --> 00:33:04,916 Shortly around, 998 00:33:05,700 --> 00:33:08,853 he had the embarrassment of the 999 00:33:09,687 --> 00:33:13,257 the invasion at the Bay of Pigs in Cuba. 1000 00:33:14,342 --> 00:33:17,328 Then in October of 62, 1001 00:33:17,328 --> 00:33:20,214 he went into that terrible confrontation 1002 00:33:20,515 --> 00:33:21,532 on the Cuban Missile 1003 00:33:21,532 --> 00:33:23,751 Crisis, where we almost had 1004 00:33:23,751 --> 00:33:25,703 an exchange of nuclear weapons. 1005 00:33:26,270 --> 00:33:29,307 And all of this, Mieli 1006 00:33:29,907 --> 00:33:31,909 John Glenn, is taking 1007 00:33:31,909 --> 00:33:34,012 the hopes of America. 1008 00:33:35,246 --> 00:33:36,597 Into the heavens. 1009 00:33:37,348 --> 00:33:40,001 So thank you for capturing that 1010 00:33:40,051 --> 00:33:41,703 and you've done it so well. 1011 00:33:42,336 --> 00:33:43,905 Well, thank you, Administrator. 1012 00:33:43,955 --> 00:33:46,240 Thank you for your generous comments 1013 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,042 and for inviting me to 1014 00:33:48,042 --> 00:33:48,993 to talk with you today. 1015 00:33:49,027 --> 00:33:50,728 It's been a real thrill and a real honor. 1016 00:33:51,779 --> 00:33:52,130 Well, good. 1017 00:33:52,230 --> 00:33:53,731 Look forward to visiting 1018 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:57,685 you, as this has been incredibly, 1019 00:33:57,852 --> 00:33:59,053 you know, as a historian, 1020 00:33:59,053 --> 00:34:00,388 just to sit and listen to you guys, 1021 00:34:00,388 --> 00:34:01,389 that this conversation 1022 00:34:01,389 --> 00:34:02,190 is incredibly important 1023 00:34:02,190 --> 00:34:03,941 because you bring out the incredibly 1024 00:34:04,442 --> 00:34:06,260 the issues that are at play here. 1025 00:34:06,260 --> 00:34:06,494 Right. 1026 00:34:06,511 --> 00:34:08,229 Why is it that history matters? 1027 00:34:08,529 --> 00:34:09,731 Why is it that knowing 1028 00:34:09,731 --> 00:34:10,982 this history is important? 1029 00:34:10,998 --> 00:34:11,315 Right. 1030 00:34:11,916 --> 00:34:12,934 And I think you've done 1031 00:34:12,934 --> 00:34:14,402 a great job just laying it out. 1032 00:34:14,402 --> 00:34:15,520 And Administrator Nelson, 1033 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,071 you ask the right questions 1034 00:34:17,071 --> 00:34:18,990 to get to get to that context, 1035 00:34:18,990 --> 00:34:20,308 because the context is so 1036 00:34:20,308 --> 00:34:21,492 important to the history. 1037 00:34:21,726 --> 00:34:23,978 We may remember the people and the events 1038 00:34:23,978 --> 00:34:25,296 and the dates and the times 1039 00:34:25,296 --> 00:34:26,230 and all of this, but 1040 00:34:26,531 --> 00:34:28,783 knowing how these things are lain within 1041 00:34:28,783 --> 00:34:30,184 this context is important. 1042 00:34:30,184 --> 00:34:30,568 And Jeff, 1043 00:34:30,785 --> 00:34:32,470 as a as a final question, really, 1044 00:34:32,470 --> 00:34:33,821 and kind of one of the administrators 1045 00:34:33,821 --> 00:34:34,922 points, you know, 1046 00:34:35,740 --> 00:34:36,691 you've spent a lot of 1047 00:34:36,691 --> 00:34:39,710 time in this history and in our history. 1048 00:34:40,061 --> 00:34:41,913 How did you get to those documents? 1049 00:34:42,497 --> 00:34:43,714 And you mentioned 1050 00:34:43,714 --> 00:34:44,999 the serendipity of that. 1051 00:34:44,999 --> 00:34:46,567 But what's next? 1052 00:34:46,567 --> 00:34:48,569 And if you felt, you know, the history of 1053 00:34:48,703 --> 00:34:49,837 can provide you with anything 1054 00:34:49,837 --> 00:34:50,555 or you can get your 1055 00:34:50,555 --> 00:34:51,756 hands on new documents, 1056 00:34:51,756 --> 00:34:53,291 where might this story go 1057 00:34:53,291 --> 00:34:54,542 that it hasn't gone already? 1058 00:34:54,542 --> 00:34:56,461 And what context, what might we know 1059 00:34:56,461 --> 00:34:57,695 in the future from your work? 1060 00:34:58,412 --> 00:35:00,731 Well, thank you again, Dr. Odom 1061 00:35:00,932 --> 00:35:02,250 and thanks for those comments. 1062 00:35:02,266 --> 00:35:04,802 And I have to say that 1063 00:35:05,436 --> 00:35:07,021 all of us who do this kind of work 1064 00:35:07,021 --> 00:35:08,322 do it with a certain humility, 1065 00:35:08,322 --> 00:35:10,408 that there is always more out there, 1066 00:35:10,408 --> 00:35:11,642 that there is always more 1067 00:35:11,642 --> 00:35:12,927 of this story to tell. 1068 00:35:12,944 --> 00:35:15,480 And I was incredibly gratified 1069 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:16,564 to find that underneath 1070 00:35:16,864 --> 00:35:17,849 there's a sort of rich 1071 00:35:17,849 --> 00:35:19,450 topsoil of material 1072 00:35:19,450 --> 00:35:21,035 that gets turned over and turned over. 1073 00:35:21,035 --> 00:35:23,187 And it's all very familiar to those of us 1074 00:35:23,187 --> 00:35:24,822 who have an interest in these 1075 00:35:24,822 --> 00:35:25,773 in these stories. 1076 00:35:26,140 --> 00:35:28,292 And yet, if you dig a little deeper, 1077 00:35:28,593 --> 00:35:30,545 there's more and a lot of it hasn't 1078 00:35:30,545 --> 00:35:31,562 been seen or hasn't 1079 00:35:31,562 --> 00:35:34,182 been discovered or hasn't been put in in 1080 00:35:34,348 --> 00:35:36,334 in a different context, 1081 00:35:36,634 --> 00:35:37,902 as is the case with 1082 00:35:37,902 --> 00:35:39,303 some of what we've been discussing. 1083 00:35:39,604 --> 00:35:41,739 And so it's tough to finish 1084 00:35:41,739 --> 00:35:42,940 a book like this, because, 1085 00:35:42,940 --> 00:35:43,841 you know, there is 1086 00:35:43,841 --> 00:35:45,059 there is more out there. 1087 00:35:45,059 --> 00:35:48,663 And I have and my my curiosity 1088 00:35:48,846 --> 00:35:52,150 about these people and these decisions 1089 00:35:52,150 --> 00:35:54,569 and these issues is not ended 1090 00:35:54,569 --> 00:35:56,587 when I sent the final manuscript. 1091 00:35:56,587 --> 00:35:57,572 So I would love to 1092 00:35:57,872 --> 00:35:58,873 continue digging 1093 00:35:58,873 --> 00:36:00,875 and writing and thinking about all this 1094 00:36:00,875 --> 00:36:02,376 and love to continue 1095 00:36:02,376 --> 00:36:03,511 this conversation with you. 1096 00:36:03,961 --> 00:36:05,279 Yeah, no doubt that we 1097 00:36:05,279 --> 00:36:06,180 and we look forward to it. 1098 00:36:06,180 --> 00:36:07,565 Let us know from the history program 1099 00:36:07,565 --> 00:36:08,499 what we can do, because, 1100 00:36:08,499 --> 00:36:09,450 you know, that's our goal 1101 00:36:09,450 --> 00:36:12,036 as part of NASA is making sure ensuring 1102 00:36:12,036 --> 00:36:12,970 that this history is 1103 00:36:13,421 --> 00:36:15,339 this analysis is done to make sure 1104 00:36:15,339 --> 00:36:16,541 the documentation is 1105 00:36:16,541 --> 00:36:18,092 there, you know, in the archives. Right. 1106 00:36:18,092 --> 00:36:19,560 We've got to preserve these things 1107 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,029 to make them available for future future 1108 00:36:22,029 --> 00:36:24,048 historians to perform this analysis. 1109 00:36:24,098 --> 00:36:25,566 You know, think about JSC 1110 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:27,852 and the oral history program 1111 00:36:27,852 --> 00:36:28,619 that's out there 1112 00:36:28,619 --> 00:36:29,820 in the work that they do. 1113 00:36:29,820 --> 00:36:31,239 And, you know, NASA's headquarters 1114 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:32,490 and across the agency, 1115 00:36:32,490 --> 00:36:34,058 archivists are working 1116 00:36:34,058 --> 00:36:35,610 to make sure we have this story. 1117 00:36:35,610 --> 00:36:37,662 So I welcome any future 1118 00:36:38,546 --> 00:36:39,697 future opportunities 1119 00:36:39,697 --> 00:36:40,781 to talk it through. 1120 00:36:41,966 --> 00:36:42,316 Thank you. 1121 00:36:42,316 --> 00:36:43,417 You got it. 1122 00:36:43,417 --> 00:36:44,368 And it really you know, 1123 00:36:44,385 --> 00:36:45,836 Administrator Nelson, just what you know, 1124 00:36:45,937 --> 00:36:47,972 I really I really am. 1125 00:36:48,256 --> 00:36:49,590 I've talked to you 1126 00:36:49,590 --> 00:36:50,791 several times about history, 1127 00:36:50,791 --> 00:36:52,560 and I understand your passion for history 1128 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:53,711 because you're part of that 1129 00:36:53,711 --> 00:36:54,912 history yourself, right? 1130 00:36:54,912 --> 00:36:56,831 I mean, that's you know, so, you know, 1131 00:36:57,582 --> 00:36:58,382 I think we could 1132 00:36:58,382 --> 00:36:59,967 we probably could have spent a whole 1133 00:37:00,818 --> 00:37:02,036 several parts of this talking 1134 00:37:02,036 --> 00:37:03,304 about Glenn's experience 1135 00:37:03,304 --> 00:37:04,055 and then comparing it 1136 00:37:04,055 --> 00:37:05,189 to your own experience. 1137 00:37:05,189 --> 00:37:08,726 So so, no, you can't compare that. 1138 00:37:09,477 --> 00:37:11,762 John Glenn is by far 1139 00:37:11,762 --> 00:37:13,714 in a class of his own. 1140 00:37:14,165 --> 00:37:15,933 But I'll tell you, the history 1141 00:37:15,933 --> 00:37:16,867 we're going to write in 1142 00:37:16,867 --> 00:37:19,453 the next few years is going to be 1143 00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:22,089 an exceptional part 1144 00:37:22,089 --> 00:37:23,491 of our American history. 1145 00:37:23,908 --> 00:37:26,644 And I suspect in a time 1146 00:37:26,644 --> 00:37:29,680 in which we are so politically divided 1147 00:37:30,448 --> 00:37:31,799 that we are going to see 1148 00:37:31,799 --> 00:37:33,868 our nation's space program 1149 00:37:33,868 --> 00:37:35,486 going back to the moon, 1150 00:37:35,970 --> 00:37:36,871 the first woman, 1151 00:37:36,871 --> 00:37:38,372 the first person of color 1152 00:37:38,889 --> 00:37:40,207 getting prepared 1153 00:37:40,207 --> 00:37:42,126 to go to Mars with humans. 1154 00:37:43,110 --> 00:37:44,528 I suspect that 1155 00:37:44,528 --> 00:37:45,579 what you're going to see 1156 00:37:45,579 --> 00:37:46,797 is that is going to be 1157 00:37:46,797 --> 00:37:48,149 one of the unifying 1158 00:37:48,149 --> 00:37:49,867 factors for our country 1159 00:37:50,167 --> 00:37:52,320 in this time of political division. 1160 00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:54,038 And the Lord willing, 1161 00:37:54,455 --> 00:37:56,290 maybe that'll just bring us together. 1162 00:37:57,942 --> 00:37:58,542 There you go. 1163 00:37:58,559 --> 00:38:00,244 I think that's a great place to stop, 1164 00:38:00,244 --> 00:38:00,911 but Jeff, is there 1165 00:38:00,911 --> 00:38:02,496 anything that we didn't get to that 1166 00:38:02,496 --> 00:38:03,431 you wanted to that 1167 00:38:03,431 --> 00:38:04,765 you wanted to talk about or. 1168 00:38:04,899 --> 00:38:05,883 I have a lot of questions 1169 00:38:05,883 --> 00:38:07,451 for the administrator. At some point. 1170 00:38:07,451 --> 00:38:08,169 We'd like I'd love 1171 00:38:08,169 --> 00:38:09,870 to reverse chairs here and 1172 00:38:10,237 --> 00:38:14,158 and to be asking the questions next time. 1173 00:38:14,642 --> 00:38:15,159 You got it. 1174 00:38:15,192 --> 00:38:16,477 Maybe we could arrange that. 1175 00:38:16,627 --> 00:38:17,878 Administrator Nelson, does that sound 1176 00:38:17,878 --> 00:38:19,380 like a good opportunity for the future? 1177 00:38:20,097 --> 00:38:20,881 I'm on. 1178 00:38:23,050 --> 00:38:23,901 All right, folks. 1179 00:38:23,918 --> 00:38:25,619 Well, I think we've reached our time. 1180 00:38:25,619 --> 00:38:26,771 And I really enjoyed 1181 00:38:26,771 --> 00:38:28,122 just being a participant 1182 00:38:28,122 --> 00:38:29,740 and listening to this conversation, 1183 00:38:29,740 --> 00:38:31,592 and I hope everyone else has as well. 1184 00:38:32,193 --> 00:38:33,778 And Administrator Nelson and Jeff, 1185 00:38:33,844 --> 00:38:35,346 thank you for for participating. 1186 00:38:35,346 --> 00:38:36,080 Administrator Nelson. 1187 00:38:36,097 --> 00:38:37,198 Thank you, Jeff. 1188 00:38:38,049 --> 00:38:39,400 Appreciate the research. 1189 00:38:40,534 --> 00:38:42,570 You've done an incredible job here. 1190 00:38:43,204 --> 00:38:43,738 So, folks, 1191 00:38:44,188 --> 00:38:46,090 I look forward to capturing that history 1192 00:38:46,090 --> 00:38:46,807 going forward 1193 00:38:46,807 --> 00:38:48,609 and then in other events in the future. 1194 00:38:48,609 --> 00:38:50,878 But for now, we're going to sign off 1195 00:38:50,878 --> 00:38:51,812 And thank you for joining 1196 00:38:51,812 --> 00:38:52,813 us, both of you. 1197 00:38:53,497 --> 00:38:54,899 Dr. Pérez-Davis, thank you 1198 00:38:54,899 --> 00:38:56,100 for those kind opening, 1199 00:38:56,283 --> 00:38:57,868 inspiring opening remarks.